Doug:
Last week you ended with the proposition that "America is great, and getting greater!" What in the world would make you think that?
David:
I suppose it depends on what your priorities are. America is currently the most prosperous country overall in the world. We have the largest GDP. We contribute more money to the United Nations than anyone else. We are a great country.
Doug:
Sure, GDP is one measure. But there are many other measures that most people would mention before they would get to Gross Domestic Product or counting how much money we give to the United Nations.
David:
And yet, we are number one on both of those lists, because we are a great and industrious country.
Doug:
You literally sound like Kim Jong-un, chairman of North Korea, when you say that. Can't every citizen from every country say that they are from a "great and industrious country"? That kind of nationalistic, jingoistic rhetoric makes me feel uncomfortable. And not just now, but even when someone I respect is in the White House. What's the point of claiming our country is great, and getting greater?
David:
North Korea may say these things, but what have they to show for it? Again, we have the largest GDP and share our wealth in more ways than anyone else. The US benefits the world. We are currently increasing job growth at a faster rate than we've had in some time. American's are more optimistic than they've been in a decade. (Although polling has continued to show that Americans are traditionally much more optimistic in general than any other group in the world.)
Doug:
That is an interesting statistic regarding American optimism. Here is a view of "satisfaction" over time:
It is a little hard to make sense of these data, especially how it compares over time. Take a look at what I consider to be one of the most depressing times on our lifetimes: the World Trade Towers attacks, 9/11/2001. I had just moved to the east coast, and was in my first week of teaching at a new place. Where was the U.S.'s satisfaction over that time period? Hovering around 70. Where are we now? Hovering around 30. Are we more satisfied than we have been in a decade? Maybe. But not nearly as satisfied as we were during the Clinton years (1992-2000). A lot was going on then, including the creation of the World Wide Web.
David:
Being satisfied is not the same as being optimistic. One describes how you feel about the present, the other, the future.
People tend to be more satisfied when we are at peace, as during the Clinton years. Obama has us involved in 5 different wars currently, and yet, optimism is higher now than it was during his presidency. (Your graph is of satisfaction, not exactly comparable to optimism.) The stock markets continue to break records indicating strong optimism for the future.
Doug:
The stock market has been on a mostly uphill climb since 2009:
Does that mean that people have been more and more optimistic over the Obama years? I don't think I would put much credence into attempting to explain the stock market in terms of enthusiasm. People want to make money in the stock market. If they think they'll make more by selling, they will.
David: More jobs, a stronger economy, and more educational choice for parents are all things to look forward to. Companies are choosing to stay in America rather than shipping their jobs and factories overseas.
Doug:
Well, that is a particular narrative. I'm not sure that it is true, and in some of those cases, I'm not sure it is a good thing.
David:
Why would any of that be bad? Because it comes during a Republican Congress and presidency?
Doug:
I could imagine that some people might choose not to send their kids to school, given the choice. How does that help, regardless of who is president?
David: Even during the Great Recession, The US continued to be the final destination point for more immigrants than any other country on the planet. Why? Immigrants chose to come for various reasons, such as to live in freedom, to practice their religion freely, to escape poverty or oppression, and to make better lives for themselves and their children. They can get that here in abundance. America is now, and will always be a great country for immigrants.
A decrease in the size and scope (and regulations) of big government is good for America. What's not to inspire a view of a more prosperous future for us and our kids?
Doug:
I can think of millions of regulations that are good for America. I can think of millions of funded items being cut that will harm America. I can think of lots of reasons why immigrants can't even get to America, let alone why they may not want to.
David:
And yet, they come. Again, more come here than to anyplace else. As far as programs being cut, not everything must be paid for by the government.
Doug:
Everywhere I turn, I see what I value being cut. I like, nay need, fresh air and fresh water. I need artistic creation---the arts. It makes life worth living. I need food to be inspected. I need health care. My wife and daughter need health care. I enjoy our national parks. The U.S. educational system thrives on immigrants. Did you know that 83% of top high school science students are immigrants? I value my colleagues from around the world. I value my LGBTQ+ friends. I value my undocumented friends. I value my black and hispanic friends. I value my muslim friends. I value science. I value the Earth. I value my internet connection. I value peace. I value fair elections. I value truth.
David:
You've thrown a very large blanket covering a lot of things that won't change at all, but insinuating that they will. The EPA will still provide you with clean air and water (at least as well as when they were spending gazillions and regulating the mud puddles that occasionally shows up in my back yard after it rains. Flint Michigan occurred on the prior EPA's watch.). Did you have health care before Obamacare? Yes. And now you still have it. But most Americans can't use theirs because their deductibles are too high. My deductible this year is $10,000! You will still have health care after Obamacare is gone. Everything else you've written in the prior paragraph (as though those things will change) is utter nonsense.
Doug:
Cutting Meals on Wheels? Why? According to the Republican administration:
Do I see that our country is great and getting greater? I guess, as you said, it depends on what your priorities are. I don't expect you to have the same priorities as me. But I think you might agree that not everyone sees that "America is getting greater."
David:
The more prosperous we are, the more we are able to do. All of the things I have mentioned: more companies, more jobs, educational choices, better-run government, etc. all provide us with the ability to do more in the world, or to just make the US better by improving our own infrastructure. I know you think things were so much better under Obama, but he spent a trillion dollars more every year he was in office than his predecessors, ran up a huge mountain of debt, and we still don't have the infrastructure repairs that he promised (shovel-ready jobs) when he took office.
You may not have the same priorities as I do, but my priorities match the majority of Americans, who want more and better paying jobs. They want a secure retirement and a booming 401K. They want their kids to be better off financially than themselves. Right now, it looks like we're on our way to that happy place. But we'll have to wait and see.
Last week you ended with the proposition that "America is great, and getting greater!" What in the world would make you think that?
David:
I suppose it depends on what your priorities are. America is currently the most prosperous country overall in the world. We have the largest GDP. We contribute more money to the United Nations than anyone else. We are a great country.
Doug:
Sure, GDP is one measure. But there are many other measures that most people would mention before they would get to Gross Domestic Product or counting how much money we give to the United Nations.
David:
And yet, we are number one on both of those lists, because we are a great and industrious country.
Doug:
You literally sound like Kim Jong-un, chairman of North Korea, when you say that. Can't every citizen from every country say that they are from a "great and industrious country"? That kind of nationalistic, jingoistic rhetoric makes me feel uncomfortable. And not just now, but even when someone I respect is in the White House. What's the point of claiming our country is great, and getting greater?
David:
North Korea may say these things, but what have they to show for it? Again, we have the largest GDP and share our wealth in more ways than anyone else. The US benefits the world. We are currently increasing job growth at a faster rate than we've had in some time. American's are more optimistic than they've been in a decade. (Although polling has continued to show that Americans are traditionally much more optimistic in general than any other group in the world.)
Doug:
That is an interesting statistic regarding American optimism. Here is a view of "satisfaction" over time:
 |
| Satisfaction with the way things are going in the U.S. |
It is a little hard to make sense of these data, especially how it compares over time. Take a look at what I consider to be one of the most depressing times on our lifetimes: the World Trade Towers attacks, 9/11/2001. I had just moved to the east coast, and was in my first week of teaching at a new place. Where was the U.S.'s satisfaction over that time period? Hovering around 70. Where are we now? Hovering around 30. Are we more satisfied than we have been in a decade? Maybe. But not nearly as satisfied as we were during the Clinton years (1992-2000). A lot was going on then, including the creation of the World Wide Web.
David:
Being satisfied is not the same as being optimistic. One describes how you feel about the present, the other, the future.
People tend to be more satisfied when we are at peace, as during the Clinton years. Obama has us involved in 5 different wars currently, and yet, optimism is higher now than it was during his presidency. (Your graph is of satisfaction, not exactly comparable to optimism.) The stock markets continue to break records indicating strong optimism for the future.
Doug:
The stock market has been on a mostly uphill climb since 2009:
Does that mean that people have been more and more optimistic over the Obama years? I don't think I would put much credence into attempting to explain the stock market in terms of enthusiasm. People want to make money in the stock market. If they think they'll make more by selling, they will.
David: More jobs, a stronger economy, and more educational choice for parents are all things to look forward to. Companies are choosing to stay in America rather than shipping their jobs and factories overseas.
Doug:
Well, that is a particular narrative. I'm not sure that it is true, and in some of those cases, I'm not sure it is a good thing.
David:
Why would any of that be bad? Because it comes during a Republican Congress and presidency?
Doug:
I could imagine that some people might choose not to send their kids to school, given the choice. How does that help, regardless of who is president?
David: Even during the Great Recession, The US continued to be the final destination point for more immigrants than any other country on the planet. Why? Immigrants chose to come for various reasons, such as to live in freedom, to practice their religion freely, to escape poverty or oppression, and to make better lives for themselves and their children. They can get that here in abundance. America is now, and will always be a great country for immigrants.
A decrease in the size and scope (and regulations) of big government is good for America. What's not to inspire a view of a more prosperous future for us and our kids?
Doug:
I can think of millions of regulations that are good for America. I can think of millions of funded items being cut that will harm America. I can think of lots of reasons why immigrants can't even get to America, let alone why they may not want to.
David:
And yet, they come. Again, more come here than to anyplace else. As far as programs being cut, not everything must be paid for by the government.
Doug:
Everywhere I turn, I see what I value being cut. I like, nay need, fresh air and fresh water. I need artistic creation---the arts. It makes life worth living. I need food to be inspected. I need health care. My wife and daughter need health care. I enjoy our national parks. The U.S. educational system thrives on immigrants. Did you know that 83% of top high school science students are immigrants? I value my colleagues from around the world. I value my LGBTQ+ friends. I value my undocumented friends. I value my black and hispanic friends. I value my muslim friends. I value science. I value the Earth. I value my internet connection. I value peace. I value fair elections. I value truth.
David:
You've thrown a very large blanket covering a lot of things that won't change at all, but insinuating that they will. The EPA will still provide you with clean air and water (at least as well as when they were spending gazillions and regulating the mud puddles that occasionally shows up in my back yard after it rains. Flint Michigan occurred on the prior EPA's watch.). Did you have health care before Obamacare? Yes. And now you still have it. But most Americans can't use theirs because their deductibles are too high. My deductible this year is $10,000! You will still have health care after Obamacare is gone. Everything else you've written in the prior paragraph (as though those things will change) is utter nonsense.
Doug:
Cutting Meals on Wheels? Why? According to the Republican administration:
Not showing any results?! Time reports that "a 2013 review of research showed that most studies found home-delivered meal programs significantly improved diet quality, improved nutrition and reduced food insecurity among participating seniors." It just feeds people. Old people. What kind of results do the Republicans want out of these programs?"Meals on Wheels sounds great," [Mick Mulvaney] said, arguing that it's the sort of program that is "not showing any results."
Do I see that our country is great and getting greater? I guess, as you said, it depends on what your priorities are. I don't expect you to have the same priorities as me. But I think you might agree that not everyone sees that "America is getting greater."
David:
The more prosperous we are, the more we are able to do. All of the things I have mentioned: more companies, more jobs, educational choices, better-run government, etc. all provide us with the ability to do more in the world, or to just make the US better by improving our own infrastructure. I know you think things were so much better under Obama, but he spent a trillion dollars more every year he was in office than his predecessors, ran up a huge mountain of debt, and we still don't have the infrastructure repairs that he promised (shovel-ready jobs) when he took office.
You may not have the same priorities as I do, but my priorities match the majority of Americans, who want more and better paying jobs. They want a secure retirement and a booming 401K. They want their kids to be better off financially than themselves. Right now, it looks like we're on our way to that happy place. But we'll have to wait and see.
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