The Scourge of Intolerance

David:
I find it sad that the groups in this country that scream "Tolerance!" the loudest, are often found to be the most intolerant. Atheists, and the gay community come to mind here. Democrats like Hillary who studied and practice the teachings of Saul Alinski come to mind as well. And since many people of that ilk run higher education, we've seen the rise of censorship in our colleges and universities.

Doug:
Perhaps those words don't mean what you think they mean. Whatever are you talking about? Let's talk about something specific, concrete, and preferably not something made-up on Fox News. What have you heard an atheist or a gay person say that you find intolerant?

David:
Just recently, one of our relatives (who is liberal) posted an amusing opinion piece on Facebook. The article noted that the decathlete-formerly-known-as Bruce Jenner shouldn't get awards for being a woman, as he/she didn't go through puberty, menstrual cycles, or a great many trials that make a woman a woman. Her FB wall just about melted with the hateful rants that came largely from gay friends. People who had known her for years (in person or through FB), and know that she clearly supports her homosexual friends,  threatened to shun her and unfriend her for her "outrageous" post. Even the slightest comment straying off the reservation will lead to a verbal assault.

As an experiment, post a notice at your college or in your syllabus (or just on FB) that you believe gay people are all going to hell. See what the response is to that statement.  I double….no….. I triple-dog-dare-you.

Doug:
Great, a nice example of intolerance. Maybe I should explain that to you: saying "gay people are going to hell" can be seen by many people as being an intolerant statement. Sure, you have the right to believe that statement, and even speak it in a public place (in the United States). But that does not mean that one cannot be outraged by such statements, and speak their mind against it.

So, yes, those that strive for a tolerant world do not tolerate intolerance very well. Do you find that ironic? I don't. But the problem people have is being able to differentiate tolerating "other behavior" from "intolerant behavior." Two gay people getting married doesn't affect you... that is "other behavior" from your perspective. Live and let live. Saying that two gay people shouldn't get married is intolerance. That is often seen as hateful (because it doesn't have anything to do with you). Odd that you see such an opinion as "amusing."

I don't blame anyone from unfriending "friends" that disagree with a core value from their own. But true friends can survive such differences, and even have fruitful conversations that can lead to someone changing their mind.

So, no, I won't be experimenting by throwing out hateful speech to see who reacts negatively. But try this in your own world: post a notice that you have decided to be more tolerant to a group (you pick the group). I suspect that you won't get much support from your "friends." See the difference?

David:
You see that you have just described someone's opinion that a transgender hasn't lived through the full experience of growing up as a woman to be "hate speech". Anything that you disagree with, no matter how small, is "hateful". No. It is a different opinion. And in this instance, the opinion of the writer was very slight. She supported Jenner, but pointed out that becoming a woman later in life misses the whole "experience".

Doug:
No, I said that the statement "gay people are all going to hell" is hateful. I don't think that you arguing with me is "hateful."

David:
When Hillary Clinton says that Christians need to change their core, religious beliefs, to accept abortion, should I consider that a different opinion, or by your definition, "hate speech"? I find your argument to be too convenient: "I am tolerant of those who disagree with me and have a different world-view. But when they speak, their speech is "intolerant", so I don't actually have to tolerate their opinions." You are either tolerant, or you are not. You claim that saying something that most Christians believe is "Hateful". I would argue that is their core belief. (I agree that if you posted it, your peer group would also call it "hate speech", and you would be shunned, because it is not college-approved, anti-religious language.)  You see, you are deciding the intentions of the other person. You are saying they are hateful, and intolerant, because you interpret the statement as intolerant. And you would condemn them based on your biases. That is intolerance.

Doug:
There is no college-approved, anti-religious rules. Most of my colleagues are religious! (Your imagination literally makes me laugh.) Being tolerant is when you are open-minded, "willing to accept feelings, habits, or beliefs that are different from your own; able to allow or accept something that is harmful, unpleasant, etc." The opposite is intolerance.

"But intolerance is part of my religion!" I think if you look a little harder, you'll find that intolerance is not part of your religion... that is something added by self-righteous zealots. Just guessing on that.

David:
Wow, talk about putting words in someone's mouth. Most Christians, and certainly most Muslims around the world believe that homosexuals will not enter heaven. Religions do have rules, and not everyone will go to heaven. Many will fall short of that goal. That doesn't mean that they can't have gay friends or care about their gay friends. But you claim that saying homosexuals will not get into heaven is "hateful" and "intolerant". Those are your words. So, you are saying  to have a religious belief that is held by the majority of religions of the world is intolerant hate speech. And you've also said that you don't have to tolerate anything that you feel is intolerant. That is circuitous logic. It also is intolerant. You are not following your own definition of tolerance that you just listed! But, perhaps your belief is that all of the major religions of the world need to change to fit your world-views. You have company with old Hillary. You were asking for an example of an Atheist being intolerant. Well, now we have one.

I'm sure your school has a policy against "hate speech", and I'm sure it is a policy that you fully support. The problem is you have declared religious views as "hate speech". So, following that trail of logic, you now have college-approved, anti-religious rules. Use your imagination to see how intolerant that is.

Doug:
Your imagining is way off. As far as I know, my school does not have a policy on hate speech. But I would suspect that any speech that made a student or group of students feel bad would be considered inappropriate. We are here to inspire and educate people, not berate them. Being tolerant to others seems like a good policy for any company or institution. It almost sounds like a religious rule, of a yellowish hue...

I think you will find that there are many religious people that believe that saying, out loud, for others to hear, that "gay people are all going to hell" is indeed hateful. Lots of god-fearing speak have moved from standard religious slogans into the who-cares category. At one point not that long ago, inter-racial marriages were the targets of those that speak God's mind. Dietary food restrictions are the word of God to many. Stoning adulterers was the rule of law at one point (still is in some places).

Now days, many religious folk don't feel the need to publically comment on un-Godly food consumption or un-Biblical punishments of adultery. Is that because of tolerance, or something less honorable? I don't care; the result is more tolerance to others. I predict that anything related to "gay stuff" will soon move into the who-cares category for a majority of US religious people, for whatever reason. I'll call it tolerance.

David:
It's true that many religious people feel that they cannot express their beliefs anymore, because of folks who now deem their beliefs to be "hateful". Religious expression is now the main target of progressives. Making a group of people fearful of expressing their thoughts or  beliefs does not seem to be a very tolerant position to take. I don't see you taking a "who-cares" attitude towards Christians and their beliefs. You are actually hostile. In the same way you might say Christians are hostile towards homosexuals. And religious beliefs are not subject to the whims of society. You seem to have a very fundamental misunderstanding of both religion and what it means to hold those beliefs. Sounds like another blog on the way…

I have never unfriended anyone for their opinions, and have encouraged many to debate issues. I do not believe any of the folks on my page would unfriend me if I supported any group (well, maybe the Nazis).

Doug:
There is your imagination again. Don't imagine, try it! You know, most of the "nazis" were just regular folk who didn't just vanish at the end of WWII, and didn't get sent to prison. I bet you could find some empathy for them. Now, what were we talking about?

David:
You're confusing "Germans" with "Nazis".  Most Germans did not know what the SS and Hitler were doing to the Jews. And many were afraid of their own Socialist government. That happens when the government is the only one who is armed, as our founding fathers knew too well.

Well, at least we can agree that neither of us is likely to use our postings or FB friends to experiment on. Or to be experimented on ourselves. Everyone can breathe a sigh of relief…

Doug:
...all thanks to the "scourge of intolerance."