Doug:
I am a feminist.
David:
Of course you are. Please tell me specifically what you mean when you say that.
Doug:
What comes to your mind when someone says that they are a feminist?
David:
Gloria Steinem. And you don't look anything like her.
Well, actually there is a resemblance. But anyway, what's on your mind?
Doug:
I think your view of a feminist is a bit outdated. A feminist is anyone that works toward making it so that women have the same rights as men. Equal rights for everyone. Who could be against that?
David:
No one is against that. In fact, based on that definition, everyone I know is a feminist. Apparently, their work is already done, because I don't know any women (or know of any women) who have fewer rights than men.
Doug:
That's great!
Oh, but wait. But, maybe your idea of "rights" is a bit limited. Do you think that women should be paid as much as men for doing the same work?
David:
I was hoping we would rise above Hillary's bogus talking points. Show me an example of a woman who works the same job as a man, and works the same number of hours as a man, who gets paid less. It's already illegal to do so.
Doug:
Sorry, but Hillary Clinton isn't the only one concerned with this issue; there are many people working on making the world more fair for everyone. I guess it is clever to dismiss an issue by making it seem that only one person is championing it, and then demonize that person. I'm thinking Al Gore and climate change. That isn't an argument.
David:
When the POTUS and the only real Democratic candidate for POTUS both give speeches in the same week about this "issue", I'd say that qualifies it as a Democratic-talking point. This appears to be the only sliver of the "war on women" that still polls well for Democrats, so they're going to push it.
And let's not ever mention Al "Global-Warming-Nobel-Laureate" Gore again.
Doug:
Oh, we are going to have to talk about Al, because climate change is an important issue.
But back to the current discussion. There are lots of women that are not being paid as much as their male colleagues. Again, this is a systemic issue, and one that probably has its roots in implicit bias. Here are some data from http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/03/Graduating-to-a-Pay-Gap-The-Earnings-of-Women-and-Men-One-Year-after-College-Graduation-Executive-Summary-and-Recommendations.pdf:
There is no occupation studied here where women make more than men, but a few that men make more than women.
David:
We have women who work in my physician group as doctors, nurse practitioners, and physician assistants. They each get the same hourly wage and benefits as the men.
Doug:
That matches the data above; health care fields have equal parity of pay for men and women.
David:
We also have our group set up so that you can work less than full-time if you wish. Interestingly, all of our female physicians have opted to work less than full time for various reasons. Some of our males do as well. And whether you are a man or a woman, if you work 70% of the hours as a full-time worker, you get paid 70% as much at the end of the month. If you choose to take 3 months off for maternity leave, your job will still be here waiting for you when you come back, but your year-end cash intake will be 75% what it is for full-time workers. You only get paid for working, regardless of gender.
Doug:
The study above takes those kinds of differences into account, and women often still make less than their male counterparts.
David:
The study above wouldn't get published in any scientific journals I read. Citing prior studies that you yourself have done, to prove your argument, just doesn't hold water.
When you look at how people who push this pay-discrepancy argument forward, they are comparing apples to oranges. Women who opt for flexibility in the number of hours worked get paid less, if they work less hours. They may have the same job, but they get paid by the hour worked.
But, if you want to pursue this false argument, then President Obama and Hillary Clinton both pay their women staff 70-75% of what the men make for the same jobs. And, they continue to do so today, despite pressing this argument themselves in the past weeks. Why would they do that, if they could just pay them the same? Because it isn't true.
Doug:
Did you just argue that because some women make as much as men, that all women make as much as men? Or did you argue that because most women don't make as much as men, that all women must make less than men? I got lost in your argumental kung fu.
Anyway, being a feminist means that you care about issues like this. You want it to be the case that all people are treated fairly, and make what they deserve. Exactly how you go about solving the issue, or which area is more important, are the details. But I think you agree that we are all feminists, as you said as much: "No one is against that."
But pay isn't the only place in the world where there is unequal treatment. The idea that women are somehow less than men permeates almost every aspect of our culture. Here is an experiment to try: consider all of the things you might do or say to a woman today. Now, instead, do or say those to a dude.
Then go watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
I don't generally encourage reading the comments on any internet source, but there are many men there saying that "she should take the complements!" But imagine yourself saying those things in the video to a guy (or having them said to you from a guy). It seems disturbing, yes? Why? Because they are unwanted, and you don't say them to people that you consider equal to yourself.
David:
You''re making a few leaps here. And it's because you believe that women are paid differently, based on liberal web sites that promote this issue (and fundraise based on this issue). Try these:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2013/12/gender-and-work_final.pdf
This notes that for entry level, there is parity in salary between men and women, but that there are perceived barriers to success for women.
http://www.topmanagementdegrees.com/women-dont-make-less/
This is a site that promotes the idea of women entering into higher-paying majors. It is not a biased site. And it finds a lot of reasons that women make less than men, none of them based on discrimination.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-white-houses-use-of-data-on-the-gender-wage-gap/2012/06/04/gJQAYH6nEV_blog.html
There have been several government-agency studies that also show what these articles / studies indicate. There is essentially no difference in wages by gender starting out, and the differences that develop are the result of choices that women make: their college majors, the number of hours they work, the goals they have for careers, the decisions they make for their families, etc.
And I think they should be able to make any decisions they want, for any reason they want.
I know we agree to discriminate against a woman just because she's a woman is wrong. But to create an issue where there isn't one only serves to divide people. And that's wrong, too.
Doug:
You left out a word: it is "near parity". Let's take a look at the Pew Social Trends report (not a "liberal website".) It says, and I quote:
I am a feminist.
David:
Of course you are. Please tell me specifically what you mean when you say that.
Doug:
What comes to your mind when someone says that they are a feminist?
David:
Gloria Steinem. And you don't look anything like her.
Well, actually there is a resemblance. But anyway, what's on your mind?
Doug:
I think your view of a feminist is a bit outdated. A feminist is anyone that works toward making it so that women have the same rights as men. Equal rights for everyone. Who could be against that?
David:
No one is against that. In fact, based on that definition, everyone I know is a feminist. Apparently, their work is already done, because I don't know any women (or know of any women) who have fewer rights than men.
Doug:
That's great!
Oh, but wait. But, maybe your idea of "rights" is a bit limited. Do you think that women should be paid as much as men for doing the same work?
David:
I was hoping we would rise above Hillary's bogus talking points. Show me an example of a woman who works the same job as a man, and works the same number of hours as a man, who gets paid less. It's already illegal to do so.
Doug:
Sorry, but Hillary Clinton isn't the only one concerned with this issue; there are many people working on making the world more fair for everyone. I guess it is clever to dismiss an issue by making it seem that only one person is championing it, and then demonize that person. I'm thinking Al Gore and climate change. That isn't an argument.
David:
When the POTUS and the only real Democratic candidate for POTUS both give speeches in the same week about this "issue", I'd say that qualifies it as a Democratic-talking point. This appears to be the only sliver of the "war on women" that still polls well for Democrats, so they're going to push it.
And let's not ever mention Al "Global-Warming-Nobel-Laureate" Gore again.
Doug:
Oh, we are going to have to talk about Al, because climate change is an important issue.
But back to the current discussion. There are lots of women that are not being paid as much as their male colleagues. Again, this is a systemic issue, and one that probably has its roots in implicit bias. Here are some data from http://www.aauw.org/files/2013/03/Graduating-to-a-Pay-Gap-The-Earnings-of-Women-and-Men-One-Year-after-College-Graduation-Executive-Summary-and-Recommendations.pdf:
David:
We have women who work in my physician group as doctors, nurse practitioners, and physician assistants. They each get the same hourly wage and benefits as the men.
Doug:
That matches the data above; health care fields have equal parity of pay for men and women.
David:
We also have our group set up so that you can work less than full-time if you wish. Interestingly, all of our female physicians have opted to work less than full time for various reasons. Some of our males do as well. And whether you are a man or a woman, if you work 70% of the hours as a full-time worker, you get paid 70% as much at the end of the month. If you choose to take 3 months off for maternity leave, your job will still be here waiting for you when you come back, but your year-end cash intake will be 75% what it is for full-time workers. You only get paid for working, regardless of gender.
Doug:
The study above takes those kinds of differences into account, and women often still make less than their male counterparts.
David:
The study above wouldn't get published in any scientific journals I read. Citing prior studies that you yourself have done, to prove your argument, just doesn't hold water.
When you look at how people who push this pay-discrepancy argument forward, they are comparing apples to oranges. Women who opt for flexibility in the number of hours worked get paid less, if they work less hours. They may have the same job, but they get paid by the hour worked.
But, if you want to pursue this false argument, then President Obama and Hillary Clinton both pay their women staff 70-75% of what the men make for the same jobs. And, they continue to do so today, despite pressing this argument themselves in the past weeks. Why would they do that, if they could just pay them the same? Because it isn't true.
Doug:
Did you just argue that because some women make as much as men, that all women make as much as men? Or did you argue that because most women don't make as much as men, that all women must make less than men? I got lost in your argumental kung fu.
Anyway, being a feminist means that you care about issues like this. You want it to be the case that all people are treated fairly, and make what they deserve. Exactly how you go about solving the issue, or which area is more important, are the details. But I think you agree that we are all feminists, as you said as much: "No one is against that."
But pay isn't the only place in the world where there is unequal treatment. The idea that women are somehow less than men permeates almost every aspect of our culture. Here is an experiment to try: consider all of the things you might do or say to a woman today. Now, instead, do or say those to a dude.
Then go watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b1XGPvbWn0A
I don't generally encourage reading the comments on any internet source, but there are many men there saying that "she should take the complements!" But imagine yourself saying those things in the video to a guy (or having them said to you from a guy). It seems disturbing, yes? Why? Because they are unwanted, and you don't say them to people that you consider equal to yourself.
David:
You''re making a few leaps here. And it's because you believe that women are paid differently, based on liberal web sites that promote this issue (and fundraise based on this issue). Try these:
http://www.pewsocialtrends.org/files/2013/12/gender-and-work_final.pdf
This notes that for entry level, there is parity in salary between men and women, but that there are perceived barriers to success for women.
http://www.topmanagementdegrees.com/women-dont-make-less/
This is a site that promotes the idea of women entering into higher-paying majors. It is not a biased site. And it finds a lot of reasons that women make less than men, none of them based on discrimination.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/post/the-white-houses-use-of-data-on-the-gender-wage-gap/2012/06/04/gJQAYH6nEV_blog.html
There have been several government-agency studies that also show what these articles / studies indicate. There is essentially no difference in wages by gender starting out, and the differences that develop are the result of choices that women make: their college majors, the number of hours they work, the goals they have for careers, the decisions they make for their families, etc.
And I think they should be able to make any decisions they want, for any reason they want.
I know we agree to discriminate against a woman just because she's a woman is wrong. But to create an issue where there isn't one only serves to divide people. And that's wrong, too.
Doug:
You left out a word: it is "near parity". Let's take a look at the Pew Social Trends report (not a "liberal website".) It says, and I quote:
- "In 2012, among workers ages 25 to 34, women’s hourly earnings were 93% those of men."
- "Yet there is no guarantee that today’s young women will sustain their near parity with men in earnings in the years to come."
- "Recent cohorts of young women have fallen further behind their same-aged male counterparts as they have aged..."
It goes on, but the point of that study is that young women are doing better than ever before, but still only make 93% of what men make, and it is a constant battle. This is good news that feminism is making progress on this issue. We should all be proud of that!
(I'm not even going to respond to infographics made by a single person on their own web site. The Washington Post article is a blog, like this one. Also, not something I would let my students cite in making an argument. It may well be that the "77 cents on the dollar" argument is invalid. But that does not negate all arguments.)
David:
Still, you are using the terms "pay" and "earnings" interchangeably. They are different. None of the reports that either of us has produced noted women are "paid" less, but they do note that women "earn" less.
Doug:
(I'm not even going to respond to infographics made by a single person on their own web site. The Washington Post article is a blog, like this one. Also, not something I would let my students cite in making an argument. It may well be that the "77 cents on the dollar" argument is invalid. But that does not negate all arguments.)
David:
Still, you are using the terms "pay" and "earnings" interchangeably. They are different. None of the reports that either of us has produced noted women are "paid" less, but they do note that women "earn" less.
Doug:
I think we can agree that women are making progress, and that feminism is all about that progress. And that's why I am a feminist.
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